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Re: God's gifts



quote:


    Morwen Oronor wrote:

        
    Naturally/basically/fundamentally they are in essence the same thing.
What changed your mind? Earlier there was a big difference.

{quote]

    Firstly, I'm surprised that you are not able to understand the sarcasm in my comment.
    Then to expand on my comment in the face of your inability to see the sarcasm.

Oh I understand it Mo. This is common practice on many atheist boards I visit. Thank you for your response. Now everybody that runs through here will understand it too.



hohum! there is a huge difference between an innocent child and an adult who does ought to know what is 'wrong'! That's the difference!!! I certainly hope that the people who read this won't have to have the concept of sarcasm explained to them every time they come across it!


quote:


 Your contention that 'immorality' was 'invented' presupposes an inventor. If people just happened (or evolved) then, there being no 'creator' there is also no 'inventor'.

Would this apply to your preist?


    
    What is a 'preist'?
    
quote:


        If you understand the how humankind evolved over a period of 500,000 years,

    Evolved from what?


    
 From being stupid enough to believe what men in dresses told them what was wrong and what was right!

[quote:]
Until about 150 years ago it was considered perfectly moral to 'own' other humans as slaves.

Only in mans eyes, not in Gods. The Bible does not condone slavery as many think.


    
Really: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear" (Eph. 6:5).
And is there a quote from the bible that actually says "slavery is wrong". Why isn't there a commandment that says "thou shalt not sell another human as thou wilt an animal"? Because slavery was marally acceptable in those times and was also morally acceptable until the early 20th century and is still morally acceptable in some parts of the world.
And the people who owned slaves in the Southern States of the USA, weren't they also 'God-fearing' people???
    

quote:


Personally, I don't 'blame' anyone for anything unless they are proved to have done something 'wrong' beyond all reasonable doubt. Bad things simply happen, there is no blame unless the 'bad' thing is a direct result of some person's direct and deliberate action.



 Correct. The bad things you speak of are a direct result of Mans Actions!


Very true some man somewhere caused the 2004 tsunami in Asia. It definitely wasn't a woman that did it.

quote:

Exactly, because 'normal' human behavior is inclined towards 'good' behavior, we have to learn to be 'bad' it doesn't come naturally, which is contrary to what religion teaches. Religion teaches that we are naturally inclined towards 'bad' behavior and that we can only become 'good' by accepting what some man somewhere has decided is 'good' behavior, usually involving some sort of personal sacrifice like money.

quote:



The answer to that question is not a simple yes/no. There are never exact yes/no answers to philosophical questions.



You are kidding me right? I hope this is more sarcasm. Rape is not philosophical MO. It's criminal. It's wrong, it is immoral and you know it. I don't care where you live or what kind of contract you have (leave it up to man to find a way to make a wrong, right) forced sex is rape and it is wrong. Show over.


        
All questions of morality are philosophical questions. Until the 1990s and in some western countries, it is still against the law for a woman to deny her husband sex. It has even been grounds for divorce. And yes of course man is the cause of the problem of rape. I haven't heard of any recent cases of women being charged with 'rape'. And yes, I agree with you that non-consensual sex, no matter what the circumstances is wrong. Not from any other viewpoint but that to take anything from another person, whether it is their goods or their body, is just simply wrong.
Whether it is 'criminally' wrong in every country of the world is a legal matter, not a moral one.
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Re: God's gifts


quote:

Morwen Oronor wrote:



    What is a 'preist'?
    



If you are speaking of the spelling, I guess it would be kinda like "baser animal instincts" that you posted earlier. emoticon

quote:


 From being stupid enough to believe what men in dresses told them what was wrong and what was right!



And what did they tell them 500,000 years ago?


    
quote:


Really: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear" (Eph. 6:5).



This is not condonment MO. It's regulation of behavior, there's a difference. There are 33 Bible verses (NIV) containing the word "divorce". Divorce is specifically regulated in Scripture, but does that mean that the Bible condones divorce? Why would God give specific instructions governing both? Simple: because He knew they would be facts of mans/womans fallen world.

quote:


And is there a quote from the bible that actually says "slavery is wrong". Why isn't there a commandment that says "thou shalt not sell another human as thou wilt an animal"?



    * Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.Exodus 21:16

    * If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.Deuteronomy 24:7

Involuntary enslavement was, according to the Old Testament, evil.

I would suggest a biblical study of slavery Mo. Then you can right the misconception of the Bible condoning slavery that you have heard or read from some source other than the Bible.

Last edited by Free04, 6/1/2009, 5:55 am


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Re: God's gifts


Free wrote:
quote:

The Bible does not condone slavery as many think.



This is not condoning slavery??
quote:

Leviticus 25:
44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.



And yes, 'bondsmen' and 'bondswomen' are slaves.
They had to be with their owner to the age of 50 before they automatically became 'freed':

Numbers8:25:
quote:

And from the age of fifty years they shall cease waiting upon the service thereof, and shall serve no more



Even if only a 'bondsman', being made to serve someone, with the idea that you can be sold at any time, from birth to the age of 50, definitely sounds and feels like slavery. So here you have an innocent child, condemned to be a slave for life without any opportunity for parole, simply because your parents were slaves, sound like a pretty nasty life sentence to me.

But you say the bible doesn't condone slavery.
Therefore, slavery is moral????
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Re: God's gifts


quote:

Morwen Oronor wrote:



This is not condoning slavery??
quote:

Leviticus 25:
44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.



And yes, 'bondsmen' and 'bondswomen' are slaves.
They had to be with their owner to the age of 50 before they automatically became 'freed':

Numbers8:25:
quote:

And from the age of fifty years they shall cease waiting upon the service thereof, and shall serve no more



Even if only a 'bondsman', being made to serve someone, with the idea that you can be sold at any time, from birth to the age of 50, definitely sounds and feels like slavery. So here you have an innocent child, condemned to be a slave for life without any opportunity for parole, simply because your parents were slaves, sound like a pretty nasty life sentence to me.

But you say the bible doesn't condone slavery.
Therefore, slavery is moral????



No I don't believe slavery is moral. I think you are in Africa and I am in Mississippi. I guess we both know a little bit about slavery. My great grandfather owned a few in Arkansas.

Do you think that the slavery as you call it in these verses is same slavery that we relate to?

Could you give me a history lesson on the slavery that these verses talk about?

---


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Re: God's gifts


Only with pleasure.
Yes, slavery has always been exactly what you think it to be.
In ancient times, and the bible era is considered 'ancient times', slaves were usually the people captured during a war. An army would invade a country, kill off the men of army age and take their families and young men into slavery. As I quoted from the bible, they were slaves for life, because very few people lived beyond 40.
Some people treated them better than others but mostly they were there to do the dirty work whatever that was. They were also 'invisible' in other words people just pretended they didn't understand and didn't care what they said in front of them, like we do with our pets. But it was no different for the slaves themselves really, they were beaten, raped, murdered, sold away from their families and the idea of actually marrying a slave was a disgrace.
The bible talks about the Egyptians using slaves to build the pyramids and the temples, and uses the story of Moses as proof of this.
Historically this is totally incorrect. The people who built ancient Egypt were paid workers, there is ample archeological evidence to this effect.
The Egyptians, like everybody else in the ancient world, did have slaves but they were not people who came to Egypt of their own volition, they were also the dependants of conquered people and they lived as slaves in the same way that slaves lived elsewhere in the ancient world.
They slept where they worked, if they were a body slave, i.e. a personal slave, they slept in the master's sleeping area. If they were a kitchen slave, they slept in the kitchen. They didn't have 'slave quarters' as we understand them. They didn't own many clothes but wore what they were given to wear, and ate what they were given to eat, and they got absolutely no time off. If the master was awake, they were awake. They owned nothing, didn't build or have compounds where they lived. If you can imagine how your dog lives, that's the way ancient world slaves lived.
The only difference was the men who were bought for fighting as gladiators. These men were housed in or around the arena where they fought. They were well-fed and were expected to spend their off time training. They were expendable, expected to die in every fight they fought in the arena.
There were slaves who taught children, others who were bodyguards expected to protect their owners, others who went along to war with their masters and who looked after their 'kit'. There were slaves just for pleasure, i.e. women bought just to give the wife a break when the master wanted sex and the wife was indisposed or not inclined and also for the women when the men were away. For a wife to have sex with a slave was nothing because the slave was nothing, and if the husband was jealous, he would simply kill the slave.

In my own country, there were slaves at the Cape in the early days of its settlement but over time they became paid workers from about the early 1800s when the importing from people from the far east stopped.
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Re: God's gifts


quote:

Morwen Oronor wrote:


The bible talks about the Egyptians using slaves to build the pyramids




Could you direct me to scripture that supports this statement? Otherwise I will have to take the entire post with a grain of salt.

---


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Re: God's gifts


Do you base all your knowledge of ancient history on the bible only.

If that's the case then there's no point in further discussion. But on the other hand if you're prepared to have an intellectual discussion on where the proof really comes from:

quote:

Who Built the Pyramids?

Contrary to some popular depictions, the pyramid builders were not slaves or foreigners. Excavated skeletons show that they were Egyptians who lived in villages developed and overseen by the pharaoh's supervisors.

The builders' villages boasted bakers, butchers, brewers, granaries, houses, cemeteries, and probably even some sorts of health-care facilities—there is evidence of laborers surviving crushed or amputated limbs. Bakeries excavated near the Great Pyramids could have produced thousands of loaves of bread every week.

Some of the builders were permanent employees of the pharaoh. Others were conscripted for a limited time from local villages. Some may have been women: Although no depictions of women builders have been found, some female skeletons show wear that suggests they labored with heavy stone for long periods of time.

Graffiti indicates that at least some of these workers took pride in their work, calling their teams "Friends of Khufu," "Drunkards of Menkaure," and so on—names indicating allegiances to pharaohs.

An estimated 20,000 to 30,000 workers built the Pyramids at Giza over 80 years. Much of the work probably happened while the River Nile was flooded.

Huge limestone blocks could be floated from quarries right to the base of the Pyramids. The stones would likely then be polished by hand and pushed up ramps to their intended positions.

It took more than manual labor, though. Architects achieved an accurate pyramid shape by running ropes from the outer corners up to the planned summit, to make sure the stones were positioned correctly. And priests-astronomers helped choose the pyramids' sites and orientations, so that they would be on the appropriate axis in relation to sacred constellations.

From stone pusher to priest, every worker would likely have recognized his or her role in continuing the life-and-death cycle of the pharaohs, and thereby in perpetuating the glory of Egypt.


This is from National Geographic
Harvard Archeologists

And in case you want to know the architect's name:

Imhotep
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Re: God's gifts


quote:

Morwen Oronor wrote:

Do you base all your knowledge of ancient history on the bible only.

If that's the case then there's no point in further discussion. But on the other hand if you're prepared to have an intellectual discussion on where the proof really comes from:




Mo, your the one that said the Bible speaks about the Egyptians using slaves to build the pyramids. All I did was ask you to support your statement and you haven't. Intellectual discussion comes from facts that support your statements. I ask you again to support your statement about the pyramids in the Bible. If you can't fess up and give an honest answer I'm done.

---


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Re: God's gifts


So perhaps the bible doesn't say the Jews built the pyramids.

quote:

According to the Book of Exodus in the Hebrew Bible, Moses was a son of Amram, a Levite, and his wife Jochebed. According to Genesis 46:11, Amram's father Kohath immigrated to Egypt with 70 of Jacob's household, making Moses part of the second generation of Israelites born during their time in Egypt.

In the Exodus account, the birth of Moses occurred at a time when the current Egyptian Pharaoh had commanded that all male children born to Hebrew slaves be killed by drowning in the river Nile.

Jochebed, the wife of the Levite Amram, bore a son, and kept him concealed for three months. The daughter of Pharaoh discovered the baby and adopted him as her son, and named him "Moses" (considered to mean "to draw out").

After Moses had reached adulthood, he went to see how his brethren who were enslaved to the Egyptians were faring. The next day, seeing two Hebrews quarreling, he endeavored to separate them, whereupon the Hebrew who was wronging the other taunted Moses for slaying the Egyptian. Moses soon discovered from a higher source that the affair was known, and that Pharaoh was likely to put him to death for it;

One day, as Moses led his flock to Mount Horeb, he saw a burning bush that would not be consumed. When he turned aside to look more closely at the marvel, God spoke to him from the bush revealing his name to Moses.

God commissioned him to go to Egypt and deliver his fellow Hebrews from bondage.

Read more: http://encyclopedia.stateuniversity.com/pages/15435/Moses.html#ixzz0HHrEnfJ4&B



Read here

Also the 10 commandments says:

quote:

I am the Lord thy god, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.



I think we established earlier that 'bondage' meant slavery.

quote:

"Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years."

-- Genesis 15:13



quote:

Then the king of Egypt said to them, "Moses and Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to your labor." And Pharaoh said, "Look, the people of the land are many now, and you make them rest from their labor!" So the same day Pharaoh commanded the taskmasters of the people and their officers, saying, "You shall no longer give the people straw to make brick as before. Let them go and gather straw for themselves. And you shall lay on them the quota of bricks which they made before. You shall not reduce it. For they are idle; therefore they cry out, saying, 'Let us go and sacrifice to our God.' Let more work be laid on the men, that they may labor in it, and let them not regard false words."

Exodus 5: 4-9

And if they were 'making bricks' were they not builders?

quote:

And the taskmasters of the people and their officers went out and spoke to the people, saying, "Thus says Pharaoh: 'I will not give you straw. Go, get yourselves straw where you can find it; yet none of your work will be reduced.'" So the people were scattered abroad throughout all the land of Egypt to gather stubble instead of straw. And the taskmasters forced them to hurry, saying, "Fulfill your work, your daily quota, as when there was straw." Also the officers of the children of Israel, whom Pharaoh's taskmasters had set over them, were beaten and were asked, "Why have you not fulfilled your task in making brick both yesterday and today, as before?"

Exodus 5: 10-14

And verses 15-19:
quote:

Then the officers of the children of Israel came and cried out to Pharaoh, saying, "Why are you dealing thus with your servants? There is no straw given to your servants, and they say to us, 'Make brick!' And indeed your servants are beaten, but the fault is in your own people." But he said, "You are idle! Idle! Therefore you say, 'Let us go and sacrifice to the Lord.' Therefore go now and work; for no straw shall be given you, yet you shall deliver the quota of bricks." And the officers of the children of Israel saw that they were in trouble after it was said, "You shall not reduce any bricks from your daily quota."



I think these pretty much establish that the Hebrews were 'slaves' - maybe they were building temples because the pyramids had already been in existence for a long time. But they were building something, temples?
But archeology teaches us that this is not true and that these buildings were in fact built by artisans and builders and that they weren't slaves.
More????
6/2/2009, 11:48 am Link to this post Send PM to Morwen Oronor Blog
 
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Re: God's gifts


quote:

Morwen Oronor wrote:

So perhaps the bible doesn't say the Jews built the pyramids.



Very good! It doesn't
quote:


Also the 10 commandments says:



quote:

I am the Lord thy god, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

I think we established earlier that 'bondage' meant slavery.



Actually this is verse 2, not a part of the 10 Commandments, but I get your point of bondage. And I agree.



quote:

"Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years."

-- Genesis 15:13



quote:

Then the king of Egypt said to them, "Moses and Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to your labor." And Pharaoh said, "Look, the people of the land are many now, and you make them rest from their labor!" So the same day Pharaoh commanded the taskmasters of the people and their officers, saying, "You shall no longer give the people straw to make brick as before. Let them go and gather straw for themselves. And you shall lay on them the quota of bricks which they made before. You shall not reduce it. For they are idle; therefore they cry out, saying, 'Let us go and sacrifice to our God.' Let more work be laid on the men, that they may labor in it, and let them not regard false words."

Exodus 5: 4-9
quote:


And if they were 'making bricks' were they not builders?



I agree

quote:

And the taskmasters of the people and their officers went out and spoke to the people, saying, "Thus says Pharaoh: 'I will not give you straw. Go, get yourselves straw where you can find it; yet none of your work will be reduced.'" So the people were scattered abroad throughout all the land of Egypt to gather stubble instead of straw. And the taskmasters forced them to hurry, saying, "Fulfill your work, your daily quota, as when there was straw." Also the officers of the children of Israel, whom Pharaoh's taskmasters had set over them, were beaten and were asked, "Why have you not fulfilled your task in making brick both yesterday and today, as before?"

Exodus 5: 10-14

And verses 15-19:
quote:

Then the officers of the children of Israel came and cried out to Pharaoh, saying, "Why are you dealing thus with your servants? There is no straw given to your servants, and they say to us, 'Make brick!' And indeed your servants are beaten, but the fault is in your own people." But he said, "You are idle! Idle! Therefore you say, 'Let us go and sacrifice to the Lord.' Therefore go now and work; for no straw shall be given you, yet you shall deliver the quota of bricks." And the officers of the children of Israel saw that they were in trouble after it was said, "You shall not reduce any bricks from your daily quota."


quote:


I think these pretty much establish that the Hebrews were 'slaves' - maybe they were building temples because the pyramids had already been in existence for a long time. But they were building something, temples?



I agree again. I never said the Bible did not acknowledge slavery, which is what some of the above scriptures are Mo. Acknowledgment! I think we were discussing the Bible condoning slavery. These scriptures are not condonement of slavery.


quote:


But archeology teaches us that this is not true and that these buildings were in fact built by artisans and builders and that they weren't slaves.
More????



What buildings? You are making a ton of assumptions. You even question what they were building above. So how do you know archeology teaches us anything different than these scriptures. Yes More please.



Last edited by Free04, 6/2/2009, 3:39 pm


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