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Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Intercessory prayer.


The terrorist thing. That is totally wrong. Terrorists, especially the Muslim variety, firmly believe that they are conducting a Holy War in the name of Allah (God) and with his blessing, against the heretics i.e. everybody who isn't a Muslim, even if you believe in God, it makes no difference.
So if God answers prayers then why does he keep answering the prayers of the Muslims who get away with murdering innocents? He obviously didn't answer the prayers of the non-Muslim people who were on the planes when they were hijacked and flown into buildings, and he did answer the prayers of the Muslims who were flying those planes.
3/28/2009, 1:13 pm Link to this post Send PM to Morwen Oronor Blog
 
jinzleftbuttcheek Profile
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Re: Intercessory prayer.


First of all when I speak of terrorists I am speaking of all terrorists and not just the middle eastern ones. To address them specifically they do know what they are doing is wrong. They know they are perverting their holy text. They have clothed themselves in a robe of radical theology in order to lie to themselves so they can justify actions which run counter to what they know is correct. We all do it to some extent. Someone might get a bank error in their favor of $50 and not report it justifying it because it's only $50 and the bank has plenty of money. Therefore it is ok. It's ok to go 10 miles over the speed limit cause everyone else is going 20 miles over. God knows the lies we tell. Even the ones we tell ourselves.

Unfortunately MO you can't have it both ways. You can't have the intelligence and free will so you can make a rational choice to not believe and then cry foul because God gave someone else the same privilege and they chose to do evil things with it. Either you are a free agent with intelligence or you are a robot.

Last edited by jinzleftbuttcheek, 3/28/2009, 2:20 pm


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Friendship is precious, not only in the shade, but in the sunshine of life. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Stormdog Profile
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Re: Intercessory prayer.


quote:

jinzleftbuttcheek wrote:

Why sir, you do turn mah head with your faint praise. Yer gonna give me a case of the vapors. (lol)

1. If he choose to yes he could suspend the laws of physics but usually he acts in a more sublime way.



well, if the laws of physics are not suspended, then the universe is acting/responding in a natural way, ie: god isn't doing anything. The question is, does prayer alter the outcome of an event. I've yet to see a consistent response to suggest that it does. In order to be effective, prayer, or rubbing a horseshoe or a rabbit's foot, must alter the laws of physics.

quote:

2. I guess it was who was doing the test and were they expecting a specific outcome. god doesn't always answer in the way you want but in the way you need him to.



They were scientific experiments. A summary of all such tests is overwhelming in its conclusion: prayer doesn't effect outcome. Neither does employing rabbit's feet or rubbing your stomach while patting your head.

quote:

3. No one prayer is just as loud as a million prayers.



Makes you wonder just how hard up for social contact people have to be to join a prayer chain, eh? I'd find that rather insulting to my deity, if I were you.

quote:

4. Terrible things happen there is no doubt about that. Either we are robots acting on the demand of a higher power or we have free will and accept the ggod and bad that goes along with that.



In other words, you must accept that there will be no interfering from god. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

quote:

5. Many people of faith do pray for those things. Not all prayers are for selfish desires. There is no limit to prayers anymore than there is a limit to how many times you will repond to the sound of your child crying. God does not get overwhelmed by our prayers.



So why don't all religious people simply quit playing favorites and do the obvious thing - call on god to act for everyone?

quote:

6. yes



So who are you to ask god to deviate from the Plan?

quote:

7. No, God gave us each talents and free will. We can use those talents or waste them as we see fit. God may give you a high IQ but it is up to you to use that to uplift humanity or become the next Josef Mengaller (I know I've misspelled his name but you know who I am talking about, the nazi doctor).

Is there something wrong with a low IQ?



No, but there's something seriously wrong with a god that could have decided to give her a high IQ instead of a low one. Staying in context here, the question is, why did god show favor to a brilliant surgeon over your daughter? This seems fair to you? Or perhaps he had nothing to do with either one? Perhaps this is a good time to remind you about being consistent and accept that he isn't going to interfere, as you suggested earlier. (see your own response to #4)

  
quote:

My daughter's IQ is 45 and she has autism. I do not see her as defective or imperfect. She is a blessing and I thank God everyday for her. Be care here Storm because I will lose my religion over her.



I suggest that you do.

quote:

God gives you a mind Storm the ability to know right from wrong.



Really? Seems that his ability to provide what he feared Adam and Eve would achieve - the knowledge of good & evil - is very poor. Rights and wrongs are not of divine origin. In fact, it's exactly the other way 'round. I'll merely point out the glaring contradictions between OT values and ours in the modern world to close this case.

  
quote:

The terroist knows he is wrong but he has rationalize his motives and behavior.



Incorrect. The terrorist is convinced he is right, and probably sure of it much more than you are. Would you kill for your religious beliefs? No. You do not have the religious convictions (mental imbalance) to take your beliefs to the extreme. Not being an idiot, you'll admit that you're, at best, 99% sure you're right with regards to your religious beliefs. Maybe not to anyone else, but deep down, you must admit that you could be wrong, like the rest of us sane & honest folk.

   
quote:

Just as I know if I was walking behind you and you dropped your wallet. What I should do is give it back to you but God isn't gonna force me to. He might work on me for a time trying to get me to do what is right but he will not force me against my will to do it.



OK, this makes no sense whatsoever. An all-powerful deity doesn't "try" to do something. Either he does it or he doesn't. And again, either he interferes or he doesn't. With all due respect, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth again.

quote:

Say a doctor has looked at an MRI numerous times w/o being able to see what is causing a problem I do believe that through prayer a doctor could be inspired or have insight to see what he did not see before.



How, exactly, does that work, and why do you believe that?



Last edited by Stormdog, 3/28/2009, 8:58 pm


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jinzleftbuttcheek Profile
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Re: Intercessory prayer.


I do not get how you equate answering prayers with a change in the laws of physics. I would also like to see how you can have a quantitative science experiment of something that is highly subjective. So did they ask for a million dollars and when they didn't get it but got something they needed more so proof he doesn't answer prayers. As for my daughter, everyone who meets her loves her. She is a blessing not only to me but everyone she meets. God did not cheat her. she is quiet blessed. It is not me who wants it both ways. You can't have the ability to make choices for yourself and then cry foul when someone makes a choice you don't like. With terrorists if it is not religion, it's patriotism or ethnic pride or whatever cause will justify their evil. Religion is a convenient excuse, it is not the cause of evil. Yes everyone has moments of doubts. I have doubts about a lot of things. That doesn't mean those things are wrong or bad. It just means I am human.

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Friendship is precious, not only in the shade, but in the sunshine of life. ~Thomas Jefferson
3/28/2009, 10:38 pm Link to this post Send Email to jinzleftbuttcheek   Send PM to jinzleftbuttcheek Yahoo
 
Stormdog Profile
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Re: Intercessory prayer.


quote:

jinzleftbuttcheek wrote:

I do not get how you equate answering prayers with a change in the laws of physics.



I have no idea how you can claim that god answered your prayers without a violation or suspension of the laws of physics. If the laws of physics are not violated, there is no valid reason to claim supernatural interference (god answered your prayer). Heck, I can simply argue that my dog answered your prayers, and it would be a claim equally valid to yours regarding your god.

 
quote:

I would also like to see how you can have a quantitative science experiment of something that is highly subjective.



Quite easily. People are making a claim regarding cause & effect when they speak of answered prayers. THE CLAIMS ARE NOT OF A SUBJECTIVE NATURE. They're very specific. Such claims of this nature are certainly testable, in the same way that claims of the power of horseshoes are.

Think of it this way: A woman in a bingo parlor claims that rubbing her troll doll on her cards brings her luck. She swears that her luck is improved by doing so. Now, you and I recognize the error in thinking that she's making - she's only remembering the hits. It's the same reason why psychics, faith healers, and other criminals get away with their scams. It's the same reason people incorrectly believe in the lunar effect. They remember the hits and ignore the misses. But all of these claims are quite easily testable. We simply tally the results and compare them to the expectations of random chance results.

Just as there's not a correlation between betting on the horses while rubbing a rabbit's foot and the race results, or rubbing bingo cards with a troll doll and the rate of winning jackpots, there's no increase in successes of heart surgeries when people pray for the patient. Even if the patient knows that he's being prayed for! We simply compare the results to that of the control groups. If prayer actually worked, we'd expect to see a detectable difference in outcome. We do not. Therefore, the only conclusion available to us is that prayer does not affect outcome. Period.

 
quote:

So did they ask for a million dollars and when they didn't get it but got something they needed more so proof he doesn't answer prayers. As for my daughter, everyone who meets her loves her. She is a blessing not only to me but everyone she meets. God did not cheat her. she is quiet blessed. It is not me who wants it both ways.



Oh, but you do. When good things happen, you attribute it to god. When bad things happen, you claim that god doesn't interfere. Make up your mind.

 
quote:

You can't have the ability to make choices for yourself and then cry foul when someone makes a choice you don't like.



I don't understand what you're saying here. Who's calling foul, and why?

 
quote:

With terrorists if it is not religion, it's patriotism or ethnic pride or whatever cause will justify their evil.



You don't understand terrorists. They're not interested in justifying anything. They feel they're above and beyond that. They're already convinced they're 100% correct, and the mere suggestion that it's possible they might be mistaken will probably cost you your life.

  
quote:

Religion is a convenient excuse, it is not the cause of evil.



It most certainly is. This isn't an original quote of mine, but without religion, good people would still perform good deeds, and bad people would still perform evil deeds, but for good people to perform evil deeds - that requires religion. It's not an excuse in any way whatsoever. It is not the only source/motivation of evil deeds but it certainly is a primary one.

  
quote:

Yes everyone has moments of doubts. I have doubts about a lot of things. That doesn't mean those things are wrong or bad. It just means I am human.



Almost - it means you're not entirely consumed by insanity via your religion. You're not 100% Christian, thank god. Of course you have doubts. Any honest & sane person does. However, not everyone has doubts. Not everyone is sane. Doubters do not fly planes into buildings, convict young women of witchcraft, or dash the brains of babies against rocks.

One of the main and obvious problems that arises regarding the futility of prayer is that it renders Jesus a liar. He said all you had to to, if you believed, is ask and you shall receive. He said it several times, yet try it out. Pray tonight for all the children with cancer to be healed. Give it a shot, but first, anyone wanna make any wagers on the outcome? I accept Visa, MC, or Paypal.

Untruths:
    * If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21]

    * If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14]

    * Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7]

    * Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20]

    * Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24]

Jesus is a big fat liar. Forget healing all the children with cancer (odd that you'd have to ask god/Jesus to help out in the first place, eh?). My wife's uncle has had his foot amputated. Anyone here stupid enough to trust in Jesus to the point of praying for his foot to be regenerated? Anyone? Anyone still believe in prayer, raise your hand. Rick?

So far, we've established that praying can make the person doing the praying feel good about themselves, and that's it. Anyone else want to give this a shot? And is there any point now in me dissecting the silly phrase "God bless America"?

Last edited by Stormdog, 3/31/2009, 2:31 am


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Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.
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Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Intercessory prayer.


quote:

jinzleftbuttcheek wrote:

 With terrorists if it is not religion, it's patriotism or ethnic pride or whatever cause will justify their evil. Religion is a convenient excuse, it is not the cause of evil. Yes everyone has moments of doubts. I have doubts about a lot of things. That doesn't mean those things are wrong or bad. It just means I am human.



Sorry that answer is wrong.
Patriotism is what drives young Americans to take their lives in their hands when they go to fight in Iraq.
Terrorists don't feel a thing for their country, not these terrorists or the ones who caused the chaos at the Munich Olympic Games. They are killers for Allah. They believe firmly that the same God that you worship is the God that gives them victory over the heretics.
When the Taliban gain control of Pakistan and regain Afghanistan after the allies have left, they will be running both countries not from a patriotic point of view but from the point of view of religious fanaticism.
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Stormdog Profile
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A victory for reason, and humanity.


Perhaps there is not a more beautiful example of how reason can win over religion, and I'm proud to have been personally responsible for such a demonstration here on this forum. Perhaps the Christians will return to defend their delusions, but I highly doubt it. I think that it's safe to say that the jury is in - intercessory prayer is bunk, and cannot be defended in a rational manner.

Last edited by Stormdog, 4/1/2009, 10:21 pm


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Stormdog Profile
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where have all the Christians gone?


I guess they all either left or converted to atheism. Either way, I think I can close this thread, having made my point. If anyone disagrees, please... oh, never mind. (who would dare now?)

The question is not whether god answers prayers or not. We know that he does not, at least, not at any higher rate than that of a glass of water. Praying to a glass of water gives you the identical results that you get if you pray to god. We're smart people. We can see this. So the question isn't whether or not god answers prayers. The question is why doesn't he? My answer is the simplest and most easily defended and demonstrated - because he doesn't exist in the real world. Mel's answer couldn't pass muster, and even a pastor couldn't help. Case closed.

Next!



Last edited by Stormdog, 4/30/2009, 10:12 pm


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Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.
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