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Stormdog Profile
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Hi Rick.


Please feel free to make a new post, where you lay out one of your favorite prophesies. Seems others are only interested in preaching to the choir and don't want their favorites be given a closer look.

I appreciate you stepping up to the plate here. Considering the amount of claims being made in regards to biblical prophecy, it's truly amazing how hard it is to get anyone to actually discuss them in a scholarly fashion.

Do read over the sticky post I made in this section on the basic guidelines that we'll be using when analyzing any claims of prophecy.

*btw, welcome to the boards. You should also feel free to head over to the Introductions section and tell us a bit about yourself.

Last edited by Stormdog, 1/26/2009, 3:05 am


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There' s probably no God.
Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.
1/26/2009, 2:55 am Link to this post Send Email to Stormdog   Send PM to Stormdog
 
Stormdog Profile
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Hello?


Rick?

---
There' s probably no God.
Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.
1/29/2009, 11:26 pm Link to this post Send Email to Stormdog   Send PM to Stormdog
 
Pastor Rick Profile
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Re: I'm surprised.


Sorry Stormdog, I have had some troubles getting caught up to where I could venture outside of my RB duties circle.

How about the prophecy in Genesis 49:10 that the sceptre would not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet until Shiloh come.

The sceptre and lawgiver references the tribal identity of Judah and we are told that would not be lost until Shiloh comes.

Shiloh has always been taken as a reference to the Messiah and in Hebrew the name means "peace" or "one sent."

Judah did not lose its tribal identity until after Jesus came at which time the prophecy was fulfilled.

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Tim Callahan Profile
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Re: I'm surprised.


This seems to be stretching it a bit. Tribal identities in the form of lineages certainly continued during and at least shortly after the time of Jesus. Thus, Paul could claim with some confidence that he was of the tribe of Benjamin (Rom. 11:1 and Phil. 3:5).

However, the 12 tribes as political entities began being eroded once there were kings ruling Israel and Judah. The tribal terretories were certainly lost in the onslaughts of the Asyrians against Israel and the Chaldeans against Judah. The tiny Persian province of Yehud, all that remained of the original kingdom of Judah, consisted of little more than Jerusalem and its environs.

The Hasmonean kings reconquered these terretories bit by bit, taking them from the ailing Seleucid Empire between160 and 75 BCE. In the process, they often forcibly converted peoples living in those areas to convert to the worship of Yahweh.

So, I would say that the assertion that the tribal identity of Judah ceased at or slightly before the time of Jesus is a bit hard to defend. In any case, this would seem to be poetic metaphor more than prophecy. Do you have anything more specific you could pinpoint as a fulfilled prophecy?

Tim

 
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Re: I'm surprised.


How do you get a poetic metaphor on this Tim? The scripture reference was made 1700 years before the events transpired. I don't believe a poetic metaphor is ever specific in identifying the true subject being discussed but I could be wrong as I have not researched the genre... In short, I am asking for clarification on what you think a true prophecy would be as this example matches my own beliefs in style and consistency.

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2/16/2009, 1:47 am Link to this post Send Email to Pastor Rick   Send PM to Pastor Rick Blog
 
Tim Callahan Profile
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Re: I'm surprised.


Okay, I've been arguing with Elim-10 about prophecies in Jeremiah and Ezekiel that Nebuchadrezzar would invade and conquer Egypt. It's my argument that no such thing happened. Do you disagree, and if so, why? You might want to follow the thread in the prophecy section that was transferred there from the Christianity section, to see what I'm specifically talking about.

Then, of course, there's Tyre. The prophecy of it's destruction, found in Ezekiel, also predicts the one to destroy it would be Nebuchadrezzar. Oddly enough, those claiming fulfillment for this prophecy cite its destruction by Alexander the Great; but Alexander certainly wasn't Nebuchadrezzar.

Both of these prophecies are explicit, and both are wrong. So, can you show me a prophecy as explicit as these, demonstrably made before the fact, that you would say was also demonstrably fulfilled?

Or do you challenge my views on Egypt and Tyre? If you do, please post your rebuttal(s) on either the Tyre thread or the one marked as a discussion with Elim-10 transferred from "Christianity."

Tim
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Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: I'm surprised.


Actually, historically speaking, the 'tribes' of Benjamin and Judah both more or less lost their political identity when they joined to form the city-state of Judah around the 10th century BCE when they split away from the old 12 tribes. The other 10 were finally and forever separated from the two southern ones when Samaria was made capital of the northern state of Israel and Jerusalem the capital of the southern state of Judah. People might have identified with the tribes of Benjamin and Judah but politically, to the rest of the known world there was no difference. And what is also interesting is that the worship of a single god - monotheism, didn't, politically, occur until the 7th century BCE when King Josiah abolished all heathen cults (2 Kings) And yes, Nebuchanezzar destroyed Jerusalem in 587, the exile was ended by Cyrus in 538 and although Jerusalem was rebuilt, the state was merely a miniature one consisting of Jerusalem and part of Judah.
Under the Persians it was part of a satrapy controlled by a governor with the priests controlling religious affairs and, under Alexander's conquest (333 when he also conquered Tyre) it belonged to Macedonia before it fell under the Ptolemies of Egypt (after his death in 323). In 200 it was incorporated into the Seleucid Kingdom of Antioch III and in AD6 became Judaea under the rule of a Roman procurator.
As you can see, the tribal identity is indeed a poetic one. There is no way that a desert people who were barely literate would have retained strict tribal identities which so much political upheaval.
The lawgivers you refer to were merely the priests who held the religion together and the only laws they were able to control were the religious ones which we know from historical evidence were not that strictly adhered to as there were various 'sects' among the people of the area.
2/17/2009, 12:51 am Link to this post Send PM to Morwen Oronor Blog
 


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