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Tim Callahan
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Answer to Elim 10: New Thread transfer from "Question" in Christianity sec.
Elim:
The prophecy in question is in Jer. 43:10 - 13. According to this prophecy, Nebuchadrezzar would smite Egypt, take the inhabitants off into captivity, burn the temples of the gods of Egypt, cleanse Egypt as a shepherd cleans his cloak of vermin - that sounds like wiping everyone out - and he will specifically break the obelisks of Heliopolis. This is the Greek name, meaning, "city of the sun." The Egyptin name is On. The city lies at the base of the Nile delta.
Now, technically this might just refer to an invasion of Egypt aimed at devastating it rather than occupying it. However, that would really be splitting hairs: Whether we are taking about just invading Egypt and penetrating to the base of the delta (lower Egypt, where most of the population was), or whether the prophecy meant the conquest of Egypt is really irrelevent here, because neither of these things happened.
In any case, the oracles against Egypt continue in succeeding chapters of Jeremiah: In Jer. 46:8, the citiies of Egypt will be destroyed. Verse 19 of that same chapter tells the Egyptians to prepare for exile (that certainly sounds like conquest) and says the city of Memphis will become a ruin. Verse 25 says that God is bringing punishment to Amon and Thebes. That means upper Egypt. Taken together, these prophecies have be veiwed as wholesle destruction and conquest.
The prophecy in Jer. 43:10 - 13 said specifically that Nebuchadrezzar would either invade and devastate or absolutely conquer Egypt. He did not do this, nor did his successors. Therefore, this is a false prophecy.
As to your question about whether or not I've read all of Jeremiah, I have read everything that is in the book at one time or another. However, I did not sit down and in one sitting or a series of sittings read te whole book beginning to end.
Now, I reiterate my initial question: The Book of Jeremiah says that Nebuchadrezzar would invade Egypt, devastate at least the Nile delta - possibly even Thebes, leave its cities in ruins and wipe out most of the people in Egypt, carry the others off into exile. Since Nebuchadrezzar did not do any of these things, how can this book, at least, be the word of God?
Tim
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1/29/2009, 3:12 pm
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Elim10
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Re: Answer to Elim 10: New Thread transfer from "Question" in Christianity sec.
quote: Tim Callahan wrote:
Now, I reiterate my initial question: The Book of Jeremiah says that Nebuchadrezzar would invade Egypt, devastate at least the Nile delta - possibly even Thebes, leave its cities in ruins and wipe out most of the people in Egypt, carry the others off into exile. Since Nebuchadrezzar did not do any of these things, how can this book, at least, be the word of God?
Tim
Why would you think he didn't?
---
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1/30/2009, 10:06 am
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Tim Callahan
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Re: Answer to Elim 10: New Thread transfer from "Question" in Christianity sec.
I've already gone over this in some detail; but here it is again. Nebuchadrezzar only mentions an expedition against the Egyptians. The monuments etc. left by Mesopotamian kings are propagandistic and self-congratulatory. Had he invaded Egypt and wrought destruction, he would have said so.
Also, physical actions have physical consequences. There is no way the destruction Jeremiah descibes could have taken place without leaving some sort of archaeological record. We have the material effects, for example, of the Hyksos invasion of Egypt many centuries earlier.
Finally, even though royal Egytian records are propagandistic (like everyone else's), they acknowledged invasions, rationalizing them as "our gods were angry with us." We have no Egyptian record of such an invasion.
In short, something the scope of which Jeremiah predicts could not happen without leaving a considerable record. By comparison, we have, for example, Biblical testimony, Assyrian records and the archaeological evidence that every city in Judah except Jerusalem was devastatingly sacked when the Assyrians under Sennacherib invaded Judah.
Tim
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1/30/2009, 10:28 am
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Tim Callahan
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Re: Answer to Elim 10: New Thread transfer from "Question" in Christianity sec.
Elim:
Not only did Jeremiah predict the invasion, and probably the conquest of Egypt by Nebuchadrezzar, so also did Ezekiel. In Ezek. 30:10 - 26, the prophet predicts that Nebuchadrezzar would invade Egypt, destroy the land (vv. 10, 11), that God would dry up the Nile (v. 12) that there would no longer be a prince (Heb. "nasi," meaning "exalted one") of the land of Egypt (v. 13), that the multitudes of the city of Thebes wuuld be cut off (v. 15), that the Babylonians would kill the young men of Heliopolis (On), take the women into captivity (vv. 17, 18) and scatter the Egyptians among the nations (v.26). This can only mean conquest, not just a devastating invasion, and this was to be done by Nebuchadrezzar.
None of this happened. The Nile didn't dry up, nor did the Chaldeans take population of Egypt off into captivity, Nebuchadrezzar did not conquer Egypt and put an end to pharaohs ruling Egypt. As I have said previously, Pharaoh Amasis made an alliance with Nabonidus, one of Nebuchadrezzar's successors.
So, both Jeremiah and Ezekiel got it wrong. No doubt it looked to them as if Nebuchadrezzar would conquer Egypt. He must have seemed invincible to them.
Tim
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1/30/2009, 10:51 pm
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Elim10
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Re: Answer to Elim 10: New Thread transfer from "Question" in Christianity sec.
Do you really think we can know everything through history?I'm sure that there is a lot of "significant" events that no one knows of either because there is no trace left or because historical trace is yet to be found.Do you know what other "significant" events was happening else where in the world(like North America,Australia,Western Africa,ect.) in 605 B.C.?
Historical records will vary.You base your assupmtions on historical records.According to your own beliefs,isn't the Bible a historical record as well as the monuments by Mesopatomian kings?
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1/31/2009, 2:10 pm
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Tim Callahan
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Re: Answer to Elim 10: New Thread transfer from "Question" in Christianity sec.
Yes, the Bible is a historical record and an ancient document, or, more properly, an ancient library. One reason the records left by the Egyptians and the various Mesopotamian civilizations are important is that they are preserved ddocuments as opposed to transmitted documents. The Bible, as a library of transmitted documens, is liable to changes that can occur as errors in copying. On the other hand, once something is consdered holy writ it's less likely to be tampered with.
To be sure, the documents in the royal archives of the Egyptians, Assyrians, Chaldeans and Persians tended to be self-serving and propagandistic. Thus, one must sometimes read between the lines. However the Bibe also has problems along that line, particualarly since different books of the Bible often disagree with each other, not to mention the disagreements even within various books.
As an example of an ancient record that might need to be partially taken with a grain of salt, but can still give us vital information, consider the Merneptah Victory Stela. Merneptah was the son of Ramesses II, the Great, and reigned 1212 - 1202 BCE. He set up his Victory Stela, actually a hymn, to commemorate his campaign against various peoples in Canaan. In line 7 he says, "Israel is laid waste, his seed is not." This would seem to be a claim that he had exterminated the entity called israel. We can easily dismiss this claim as hyperbole. However, that he mentioned a people called Israel means that there was already such a people living in Canaan, among other peoples mentioned in the Stela, a bit before 1200. Another bit of information that can be gleaned from this document is that the Egyptians used characters called "determinatives" before proper names to designate whether the names were of individuals, cities, peoples or nation-states with kings and fixed boundaries. The determinative in front of Israel is that of a people or tribal group, rather than a kingdom. So Israel was already in Canaan as a tribal group, but not a unified nation by 1200.
Another example of where we have to read between the lines but can still find important nformation can be found in the Moabite Stone, set up by Mesha, king of Moab (see 2 Kings 3:4 - 27). At one point in the inscription he says, "As for Omri, king of Israel, he humbled Moab for many years, for Chemosh was angry at his land." This admission is important, because it shows that, even in their prapagandistic monuments, the kings of ancient time didn't entirely deny unpleasant truths, they merely put their own spin on them. The reason Moab was tributary to Israel wasn't that Israel was stronger, only that Chemosh, god of the Moabites, was angry at his land.
As an example of the various problems of spin-doctoring in different records, consider what the Assyrians record left by Sannacherib, 2 Kings, Isaiah and 2 Chronicles have to say about what happened between Hezekiah, king of Judah, and the Assyrian emperor Sennacherib. The Assyrian record says (ANET 287, 288) that, in response to a revolt, Sennacherib conquered 46 cites in Judah and took 200,150 people prisoner. Senacherib says he walled up Hezekiah in Jerusalem like a caged bird, and enumerates in detail the tribute Hezekiah paid hm.
2 Kings 18:13 - 19:37 agrees that Sennacherib took all the fortified cities of Judah, whereupon Hezekiah paid him a tribute roughly equal to what the Asyrian record claims. Then, after Sennacherib has besieged Hezekiah in Jerusalem, God's angel destroys the Assyrain army of 185,000 men. Sennacherib goes home and is assassinated by two of his sons.
Isaiah 1:7, 8 says (this is in vese form, but I've recast it as prose for the sake of space):
Your country lies desolate, your cities are burned with fire: in your very presence aliens devour your land. And the daughter of Zion is left like a booth in a vinyard, like a lodge in a cucumber field, like a besieged city
This refers to Jerusalem (daughter of Zion) standing alone and besieged in a land desolated, with all other cities burned by an invader.
In 2 Chron. 32:1 -23 Sennacherib beseiges Jerusalem and Lachish, but no mention is made of him taking any tribute from Hezekiah or taking any of the cities of Judah. After his army is destroyed and he is assassinated by his own sons, vs. 23 says:
And many brought gifts to the LORD to Jerusalem and precious things to Hezekiah king of Judah, so that he was exalted in the sight of all nations from that time onward.
Considering that the picture painted by this verse is at ods with Isaiah's picture of a devastated Judah, as well as what both the Assyrian records and 2 Kings say about Sennacherib taking all the other cities of Judah but Jerusalem; I think we can easily dismiss 2 Chron. 32:23 as propaganda. Hezekiah was not exalted by the other nations.
Where Sennacherib and 2 Kings agree is that every other city in judah was taken by the Assyrians. Archaeology backs this up. Every city in Judah shows signs of violent sacking at this time.
Of course, where Sennacherib and 2 Kings disagree what happened to the 185,000 strong Assyrian army. If we concede that there is the possibility of propagandizing in both documents, then we have to go with what we would expect as a consequence of such a devastating loss. We would expect at least a temporary eclipse of Assyrian power and particularly a series of revolts throughout their empire. However, this was not the case. Assyria continued to expand under Esharhaddon and reached its zenith under Ashurbanipal. By the way, as a footnote, Sennacherib wasn't assasinated by two of his sons until 20 years after his campaign against Hezekiah.
I hope I've clarified the fact that I don't simply dismiss the Biblical record, but weigh it as I do other records, keeping an eye out for subjective distortions and looking to archaeology for physical evidence.
Now, to bring this discussion back to prophecy, which this section of the forum is supposed to be about, Let's weigh the evidence once again. We have prophecies in Jeremiah and Ezekiel that Nebuchadrezzar would violently invade and conquer Egypt. We do not have even biblical histories saying that this happened.
Nor does Nebuchadrezzar say he conquered Egypt. Tablet BM 21946 from "The Chronicles of the Chaldean Kings," now in the British Museum, says of Nebuchadrezzar's capture of Jerusalem:
Seventh year: In the month Kislimu, the king of Akkad called up his army, marched against Syria, encamped against the city of Judah and seized the town on the second day of the month Adar. He captured the king. He appointed there a king of his own choice. He took much booty from it and sent it to Babylon.
If there would be anything erroneous in Nebuchadrezzar's accounts it would be erring on the side of pride and boasting. Had he taken Egypt in accordance with the prophecies in Jeremiah and Ezekiel he would have made a big deal about it.
Further, we would expect to find archaeological evidence in Egypt from the time of either Phraoh Hophra or Amasis of wholesle destruction in the cities of Egypt. We don't, because it didn't happen.
Bear in mind that, if such evidence of destruction in Egypt at that time existed, supporters of the validity of the Bible's prophecies would have used it as evidence in support of the historical verification of the prophecies against Egypt in Jeremiah and Ezekiel. You cannot have it both ways: You cannot, in all honesty, claim the evidence when it supports your view, then dismiss it when it doesn't.
Tim
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2/1/2009, 12:27 am
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Stormdog
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it would appear...
to the casual reader that, unless Elim has new evidence to put forth, the prophecy failed.
--- There' s probably no God.
Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.
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2/1/2009, 12:31 am
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Tim Callahan
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Re: Answer to Elim 10: New Thread transfer from "Question" in Christianity sec.
Elim 10:
Along with the prophecy that Nebuchadrezzar would invade and conquer Egypt, I'd like to deal with another failed prophecy, this one against Tyre. However, lest this thread become too long and tangled, I'll be starting a new thread for that prophecy in this section of the forum. You're welcome to join in.
Tim
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2/2/2009, 2:27 pm
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Tim Callahan
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Re: Answer to Elim 10: New Thread transfer from "Question" in Christianity sec.
Elim 10:
Now that you're back to posting on the forum, do you have any further response to my points about Nebuchadrezzar's failure to invade Egypt? Or would you like to dispute me on prophecies about Tyre? To do the latter, answer on the Tyre thread.
One specific question I'd like you to answer is this: If you found that archaeological and historical evidence supported a given prophecy, would you use that as evidence to demonstrate to someone who was skeptical that the prophecy was fulfilled?
Tim
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2/12/2009, 10:42 pm
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Elim10
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Re: Answer to Elim 10: New Thread transfer from "Question" in Christianity sec.
quote:
Elim 10:
Now that you're back to posting on the forum, do you have any further response to my points about Nebuchadrezzar's failure to invade Egypt? Or would you like to dispute me on prophecies about Tyre? To do the latter, answer on the Tyre thread.
Not for now.
quote:
One specific question I'd like you to answer is this: If you found that archaeological and historical evidence supported a given prophecy, would you use that as evidence to demonstrate to someone who was skeptical that the prophecy was fulfilled?
Tim
Yes, I would.
--- We pass out paper facts all week but they won't come around
Apologetic reasoning,but they won't come around,come around
There's only one way they'll come around and it's love ~ Jimmy Needham
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2/13/2009, 4:55 pm
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