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Tim Callahan Profile
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Re: Answer to Elim 10: New Thread transfer from "Question" in Christianity sec.


Very well, Elim: You would use confirming evidence from archaeology and history that supported a biblical prophecy as proof of that the prophecy in question was fulfilled. Therefore, you are saying that such evidence is important and worth considering.
 
Now, I have demonstrated that the archaeological and historical evidence regarding a devastating invasion and conquest of Egypt by the Chaldeans under Nebuchadrezzar does not support fulfillment of that prophecy. The archaeological evidence is that the cities of Egypt were NOT sacked during the time of Nebuchadrezzar, which they would have to be to support the fulfillment of the prophecy. The Chaldean and Egyptian records of the time report some conflict between the two countries, but nothing decisive.

I hope you understand that, in all honesty, you cannot use the evidence when it supports your position, then disregard it when it does not. Given that principle, do you still assert the prophecy that Nebuchadrezzar would invade, destroy and conquer Egypt was fulfilled, in the face of archaeological and historical evidence to the contrary? If you still do, how do you justify this?

Tim
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Elim10 Profile
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quote:

Tim Callahan wrote:

 Therefore, you are saying that such evidence is important and worth considering.





Well, I think it would be better to say that evidence is important to me on a certain degree.The Word of God is most important, then all else.

 
 I don't think I should believe your evidence.I think your evidence is more of an opinion.Where exactly did you get the following information:

quote:

Now, I have demonstrated that the archaeological and historical evidence regarding a devastating invasion and conquest of Egypt by the Chaldeans under Nebuchadrezzar does not support fulfillment of that prophecy. The archaeological evidence is that the cities of Egypt were NOT sacked during the time of Nebuchadrezzar, which they would have to be to support the fulfillment of the prophecy. The Chaldean and Egyptian records of the time report some conflict between the two countries, but nothing decisive.






quote:

I hope you understand that, in all honesty, you cannot use the evidence when it supports your position, then disregard it when it does not.





I think that getting all your information from zealous atheist archeologists isn't fair either.
Come on!Your evidence is from atheists and anti-christians.Of course they are going to dig in dirt and assume what they want to believe.Those archeologists were atheists before they found "evidence" against any biblical prophecy.


 





---
We pass out paper facts all week but they won't come around
Apologetic reasoning,but they won't come around,come around
There's only one way they'll come around and it's love ~ Jimmy Needham
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Okay, there are two points you are making here. Frankly, they are both wrong.

Your first point is that the word of God counts more than the evidence of history and archaeology. Yet, you would use both of these as proof that these prophecies ARE the word of God. So, is your assertion that the prophecies are indeed divinely inspired at all testable? If these prophecies really are part of the word of God, then examining them on the basis of history and archaeology ought to support them. When it does not, then it demonstrates that the prophecy, being false, cannot be the word of this God you believe in.

Your second point is a baseless accusation that the historians and archaeologists who find that history and archaeology don't support the prophecies - or, for that matter, the narratives in Joshua of the conquest of Canaan - are atheist or anti-Christian. Of course, when you make an assertion, the burden of proof is on you. However, I will point out that the archaeologists who discovered that the the archaeology of Israel simply did not support the conquest story in Joshua were actually from Christian colleges and went to Palestine (it wasn't Israel yet) explicitly intending to prove the biblical account true, to find the archaeological evidence that would put it beyond doubt. They were, in fact, greatly devastated by the fact that the evidence was contrary to what the Bible said.

This is an important point, because people often lose their faith based on what they find in the archaeological and historical record.I would, therefore, be extremely careful if I were you about lodging accusations against anyone and everyone who comes up with data that says what you don't want to hear.

Tim
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quote:

Tim Callahan wrote:

 
This is an important point, because people often lose their faith based on what they find in the archaeological and historical record.I would, therefore, be extremely careful if I were you about lodging accusations against anyone and everyone who comes up with data that says what you don't want to hear.

Tim




That is so sad.



---
We pass out paper facts all week but they won't come around
Apologetic reasoning,but they won't come around,come around
There's only one way they'll come around and it's love ~ Jimmy Needham
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Re: Answer to Elim 10: New Thread transfer from "Question" in Christianity sec.


Where exactly did you get the following information:


quote:

Tim Callahan wrote:


 Now, I have demonstrated that the archaeological and historical evidence regarding a devastating invasion and conquest of Egypt by the Chaldeans under Nebuchadrezzar does not support fulfillment of that prophecy. The archaeological evidence is that the cities of Egypt were NOT sacked during the time of Nebuchadrezzar, which they would have to be to support the fulfillment of the prophecy. The Chaldean and Egyptian records of the time report some conflict between the two countries, but nothing decisive.



Tim





---
We pass out paper facts all week but they won't come around
Apologetic reasoning,but they won't come around,come around
There's only one way they'll come around and it's love ~ Jimmy Needham
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Re: Answer to Elim 10: New Thread transfer from "Question" in Christianity sec.


I'd be interested to know where the information about the Babylonians conquering Egypt was found other than in Ezekielor Jeremiah or in the Jewish prophecies.
I haven't ever come across any Egyptian records of their land being sacked except by the Sea People (who history believes were the same Dorians who conquered the whole of the Mediterranean around 1200 BCE) or the Hyksos in 1675 BCE and the Macedonians under Alexander.
Herodotus writes extensively about Egypt, the Egyptians were prolific record keepers, even the battle between Ramses and the Hittites is recorded but there is no record of Nebuchanezzar and the Babylonians ever entering Egypt in any of these sources.
So apart from the Bible, where do you get your information that this actually did happen.
Unless you're referring to Xerxes' invasion of the known world (including Egypt who revolted) before the Greeks sent him packing?

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Elim:

Regarding my sources:

The ancient inscriptions relating to Assyrian, Chaldean and Egyptian history can be found in "Ancient Near Eastern Texts" (abbreviated as ANET), a compendium of the best translations of the most important preserved documents of the Ancient Near East, compiled and edited by James Pritchard.

Other good sources are the "Cambridge Ancient History" published by Cambridge University Press, "Chronicle of the Pharaohs" by Peter A. Clayton, "History of Assyria" by A. T. Olmstead, "The Greatness that was Babylon" by H. W. F. Saggs; and "Nebuchadrezzar and Babylon" by D.J. Wiseman.

These are a few of my sources. If you can get access to ANET, which you might be able to do through the internet, you might try comparing the bombast of Sennacherib's inscription about Hezekiah and Jerusalem and the inscription about the fall of Jerusalem by Nebuchadrezzar, with the terse mention by that same king of military operations against Egypt. You might also do well to look at how the ancient kngs either reported or rationalized losses. Particularly in this regard you could look up how Mesha rationalized Moab being tributary to Israel's king Omri on the Moabite Stone and what the Egyptians had to say about the invasion of Egypt by the Hyksos.

Tim


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Elim:

Here is a portion of an ancient text, the "Biography of Ah-mose, son of Eben" (ANET 234 - 238) concerning the expulsion of the Hyksos invaders:

Then Avaris [Hyksos capitol of the area of the Nile delta] was despoiled. Then I carried off spoil from there, one man, three women and a hand. Then his majesty gave them to me to be slaves.
     Then Sharuhen was besieged for three years. Then his majesty despoiled it. Thereupon I carried off spoil from there: two women and a hand Then the Gold of Valor was given to me and my spoil was given to me to be slaves.
      Now after his majesty had killed the Asiatics, then he sailed southward to Khenti-hen-nefer, to destroy the Nubian nomads. . . .

While this papyrus dals with the triumphant expulsion of the Hyksos, it does tell us that the Hyksos were established as invaders in the Nile Delta. It is, thus, an acknowledgment of the Hyksos invasion. Had Nebuchadrezzar invaded and conquered Egypt, there would have been some notation either of this, or of the later expulsion of the Chaldeans. However, there is no such record.

Tim

Last edited by Tim Callahan, 2/16/2009, 5:35 pm
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Elim-10:

Are you there, or have you given up?

Tim


Last edited by Tim Callahan, 2/19/2009, 11:26 am
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Elim 10:

Inadvertently, you handed my a bit of ammunition in your Tyre postings. You specifically quoted Ezek. 29:18, in which God tells Ezekiel that, despite his efforts, neither Nbuchadrezzar nor his army, ". . . got anything to pay for the labor that he had perormed against it." In the following verses God tells his prophet (Ezek. 29:19 - 21):

Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadrezzar, king of Baylon; and he shall carry off its wealth [or multitudes] and despoil and plunder it. I have given him the land of Egypt as his recompense for which he has labored, because he worked for me, says the Lord GOD.
     On that day I will cause a horn to spring forth to the house of Israel, and I will open your lips among them. Then they will know that I am the LORD.

This prophecy, according to the notes in the Oxford Annotated Bible, is the latest dated oracle of Ezekiel, which it gives as April 26, 571 B. C. (see Ezek. 29:17). This was the year that Amasis (or Ahmosis II) forced Hophra to make him co-regent of Egypt. In Ezekiel 30, just following the verses above, Ezekiel goes into detail about how Nebuchadrezzar would fill Egypt with the slain, how the Nile would dry up, how the Egyptians would be scattered among the nations, etc.

Ezekiel 29:21 seems to be saying that when Nebuchadrezzar took Egypt something momentous would happen in Isreal involving the House of David, possibly the reestablishment of the Davidic line. Psalms 132:17 says:

There I will make a horn to sprout for David; I have prepared a lamp for my annointed.

So, in Ezekiel 29:19 - 21 we have the predicted conquest of Egypt by Nebuchadrezzar and the reestablishment of the Davidic line at the same time. Neither of these happened.
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