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Tim Callahan Profile
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Re: Diologue with Elim-10 on sin


Well, I doubt if we'll agree on this, but it seems to me that you're reading a lot into the story that just isn't there. For example, when you say the snake was possessed by Satan, I don't see that here. At the point the serpent is introduced he is already, according to Gen. 3:1 "more subtle then any other wild creature that the LORD had made." There is nothing here that supports the idea that a small-brained reptile without vocal chords would be suddenly be able to speak becuase he was possessed by Satan. Wouldn't Eve, who was familiar wih the garden and its inhabitants be surpirsed that a snake could suddenly speak? Also, why would God curse the snake - again a rather witless animal - if it was only a tool of Satan?

In fact, Satan, as the name of the force opposed to God, is quite a late invention. This fact is often obscured by imprecise translation. Consider Job 1:6:

Now there came a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD and Satan also came among them.

In the original Hebrew, the one who comes before God is not "Satan" but "ha satan," literally "the adversary" or "the accuser." He is not so much the devil as the "devil's advocate," i.e. God's prosecutor.

In the Book of Enoch, an apocalyptic work from about 150 years before the time of Jesus, the rebel angels are led by two angels named Azazel and Shemihazi. The concept of a revolt in heaven by some of the angels was quite late, dating from the second century BCE, and it is only in the Christian Scriptures, written in Greek, that "Satan" goes from being Herew word meaning "adversay" or "accuser" to being a proper name.

As to the metaphor of the child eatng forbidden cookies, no parent would utterly and completely punish a child for all time for the offense of stealing cookies. What you are saying here is that, whatever the offense, God exacts the death penalty, which you see as a mercy of sorts.

Also, you still haven't eplained why, if it was wrong for Adam and Eve to be naked, God let's them run around in the buff. That only makes sense if they were as innocent as four-year-olds.

That leads me to another question: Were Adam and Eve having sexual relations while in the garden, or only after, and possibly as a result of, the Fall?

Tim
2/15/2009, 2:43 pm Link to this post Send Email to Tim Callahan   Send PM to Tim Callahan
 
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Re: Diologue with Elim-10 on sin


When I was a youngster and I heard the story of Adam and Eve and their eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, my immediate thought was that it had very little to do with trees and fruit but that what really happened was that they did what came naturally and it was for doing that without permission and sanction that caused them to be thrown out of Eden.
I suppose I was a precocious child, but it made a lot more sense to me than talking snakes and forbidden fruit.
 emoticon
Just thought I'd introduce some lightheartedness into this debate.
2/15/2009, 3:28 pm Link to this post Send PM to Morwen Oronor Blog
 
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Re: Diologue with Elim-10 on sin


quote:

Tim Callahan wrote:

Well, I doubt if we'll agree on this, but it seems to me that you're reading a lot into the story that just isn't there. For example, when you say the snake was possessed by Satan, I don't see that here. At the point the serpent is introduced he is already, according to Gen. 3:1 "more subtle then any other wild creature that the LORD had made." There is nothing here that supports the idea that a small-brained reptile without vocal chords would be suddenly be able to speak becuase he was possessed by Satan. Wouldn't Eve, who was familiar wih the garden and its inhabitants be surpirsed that a snake could suddenly speak? Also, why would God curse the snake - again a rather witless animal - if it was only a tool of Satan?




Well,if you would read on from Genesis to Revelation 20:2, you would see that Satan is described as the "serpent of old."Some translations use "the ancient serpent."Read the whole entire bible for yourself Tim.Then you would know and understand more about what your talking about.


   

quote:

As to the metaphor of the child eatng forbidden cookies, no parent would utterly and completely punish a child for all time for the offense of stealing cookies.



Hey,you're the one who chose this metaphor.I just played along.Now you see how irrevelent this metaphor is to the situation.


quote:

What you are saying here is that, whatever the offense, God exacts the death penalty, which you see as a mercy of sorts.



When did I say that?Quote please?

I do see God's mercy in the fact that I don't have to live forever as a sinner in a sin-cursed world.I also see God's mercy because he gave a just way out of the death penalty.

I also see God's justice.I know for sure that God is just and righteouss because He gave the death penalty(which is the proper punishment) to sin.

  

quote:

Also, you still haven't eplained why, if it was wrong for Adam and Eve to be naked, God let's them run around in the buff. That only makes sense if they were as innocent as four-year-olds.




They were innocent until they disobeyed God.



quote:

That leads me to another question: Were Adam and Eve having sexual relations while in the garden, or only after, and possibly as a result of, the Fall?

Tim



I have no idea.I wasn't there.Is it really that important for you to know?



---
We pass out paper facts all week but they won't come around
Apologetic reasoning,but they won't come around,come around
There's only one way they'll come around and it's love ~ Jimmy Needham
2/20/2009, 8:16 pm Link to this post Send PM to Elim10
 
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Re: Diologue with Elim-10 on sin


I am well aware that in Revelation John of Patmos refers to Satan as "that ancient serpent." If you will read carefully what I said, you will see that I agued that the being named Satan (as opposed to the Hebrew title, ha satan, "the accuser") was of comparitively recent origin. That he's identified with the serpent in the garden of Eden in Revelation hardly changes that, since Revelation was probably written around the year 90. Even if it could be demonstrated that was written earlier, it would have had to have been written after the death of Jesus, hence in the first century. Thus, the identification of the serpent with Satan is a very late concept and would seem to be exclusively Christian, as opposed to Jewish.

As to Adam and Eve being innocent until they disobeyed God, the story implies that they didn't know the difference between good and evil until after they ate the forbidden fruit. Now, I'm sure you will say that they at least knew it was wrong to disobey God, and that would be a reasonable point if it weren't for the fact that the forbidden tree is placed in the center of the garden and made to look appealing. This is where my cookie jar meatphor comes in. It would be a very bad parent who would deliberately place temptation in front of a child.

I'll end this post with a question for you: Why, would you say - in your own words, did God drive Adam and Eve out of the garden?

Tim
2/20/2009, 9:45 pm Link to this post Send Email to Tim Callahan   Send PM to Tim Callahan
 
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Re: Diologue with Elim-10 on sin


quote:

Tim Callahan wrote:

I am well aware that in Revelation John of Patmos refers to Satan as "that ancient serpent." If you will read carefully what I said, you will see that I agued that the being named Satan (as opposed to the Hebrew title, ha satan, "the accuser") was of comparitively recent origin. That he's identified with the serpent in the garden of Eden in Revelation hardly changes that, since Revelation was probably written around the year 90. Even if it could be demonstrated that was written earlier, it would have had to have been written after the death of Jesus, hence in the first century. Thus, the identification of the serpent with Satan is a very late concept and would seem to be exclusively Christian, as opposed to Jewish.




Well you see,I believe and read the Bible as a whole.Each book in the Bible(no matter when the books were written) was inspired by God.The Bible is God's Word.Therefore,if Revelation describes Satan as the ancient serpent...then he is the ancient serpent.





quote:

I'll end this post with a question for you: Why, would you say - in your own words, did God drive Adam and Eve out of the garden?

Tim




What you're asking is a huge matter.My words are subject to error.You want me to answer your question in my own words,but I don't have an answer outside of what God's Word says. emoticon


  

---
We pass out paper facts all week but they won't come around
Apologetic reasoning,but they won't come around,come around
There's only one way they'll come around and it's love ~ Jimmy Needham
2/21/2009, 2:52 pm Link to this post Send PM to Elim10
 
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Re: Diologue with Elim-10 on sin


"Well you see,I believe and read the Bible as a whole."

Odd thing to do, considering the many different authors involved - authors who often disagreed with each other.

"Each book in the Bible(no matter when the books were written) was inspired by God."

Of course they were (though there were often inspired by the politics & values of the time, too). The Koran was inspired by Allah, and the Norse Sagas inspired by a whole pantheon of gods. No arguments from me, though I wonder why you'd bring up the bleeding obvious.

"The Bible is God's Word."

Not sure how you an bring yourself to type that, considering the dramatic differences of opinions found amongst the many authors of the bible. Don't you find it odd that God would contradict himself? (a quick look at the gospels should suffice, where not only do the authors often disagree with each other, then sometimes even contradict themselves, like how Matthew states the number of days Christ was dead twice, and they're not the same). How do you feel about the books and gospels that were lost or rejected by the humans who decided what to keep and what not to? Are not only the authors, but the copyists and editors infallible (inspired) too? What rationale do you employ in deciding what is and what isn't the "word of god" beyond what you're told to believe? Do you have a way of testing a text against any conditions you consider a valid way of determining what is and what isn't "the word of god"?

Maybe it would be helpful if you could break down the phrase "word of god" so we know exactly what you mean by this. I don't want to jump the gun and cry "special pleading!" just yet, though I have a feeling I'm going to eventually.

Last edited by IceMonkey, 2/21/2009, 3:54 pm


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Re: Diologue with Elim-10 on sin


quote:

IceMonkey wrote:

How do you feel about the books and gospels that were lost or rejected by the humans who decided what to keep and what not to? Are not only the authors, but the copyists and editors infallible (inspired) too? What rationale do you employ in deciding what is and what isn't the "word of god" beyond what you're told to believe? Do you have a way of testing a text against any conditions you consider a valid way of determining what is and what isn't "the word of god"?



Hello, IceMonkey.Ha,Ha...I like your name! emoticon


Anyways, I'm glad you asked that.
I believe that the Word of God endures forever.It stands the test of time.The Bible also changes hearts just as it says it will.And you have to admit that it is powerful and can influence various cultures greatly.I'm sure that Morwen Oronor would agree with me because she mentions how Christianity "destroyed" the Celts' religion.

Look, I'm not trying to sound corny but God's Word is like sword a (Hebrews 4:12).I've seen and felt it cut an "iron chain" of addiction,immorality,drunkeness,drugs,pride,fear,anger,greed,suicide ect.But it doesn't end there.After God renews you, He gives you purpose,purity,joy,faith,hope,love,and peace even in tribulation.After God saves you, you get to the point where all you want to do is worship Him with your life even if it results to persecution.All other books didn't, can't, and will not ever do what God's Word has done.





---
We pass out paper facts all week but they won't come around
Apologetic reasoning,but they won't come around,come around
There's only one way they'll come around and it's love ~ Jimmy Needham
2/21/2009, 7:30 pm Link to this post Send PM to Elim10
 
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Re: Diologue with Elim-10 on sin


quote:

Elim10 wrote:

quote:

IceMonkey wrote:

How do you feel about the books and gospels that were lost or rejected by the humans who decided what to keep and what not to? Are not only the authors, but the copyists and editors infallible (inspired) too? What rationale do you employ in deciding what is and what isn't the "word of god" beyond what you're told to believe? Do you have a way of testing a text against any conditions you consider a valid way of determining what is and what isn't "the word of god"?



Hello, IceMonkey.Ha,Ha...I like your name! emoticon


Anyways, I'm glad you asked that.
I believe that the Word of God endures forever.It stands the test of time.The Bible also changes hearts just as it says it will.And you have to admit that it is powerful and can influence various cultures greatly.



Yes, all true. Of course, the same can be said for other texts, such as the Koran.

quote:

I'm sure that Morwen Oronor would agree with me because she mentions how Christianity "destroyed" the Celts' religion.



It certainly did. How this indicates that the religious texts are anything but fictional human creations, I have no idea.

quote:

Look, I'm not trying to sound corny but God's Word is like sword a (Hebrews 4:12).I've seen and felt it cut an "iron chain" of addiction,immorality,drunkeness,drugs,pride,fear,anger,greed,suicide ect.But it doesn't end there.After God renews you, He gives you purpose,purity,joy,faith,hope,love,and peace even in tribulation.After God saves you, you get to the point where all you want to do is worship Him with your life even if it results to persecution.All other books didn't, can't, and will not ever do what God's Word has done.



Millions of Muslims disagree with you, and based on what I know of Islam, I'd have to side with them.

Can you answer any of the questions I've asked?





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2/21/2009, 9:33 pm Link to this post Send Email to IceMonkey   Send PM to IceMonkey
 
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Re: Diologue with Elim-10 on sin


Let me clear something up before I say anything else.
When I said it 'destroyed the Celtic religion' I was not talking about its having a positive effect on the Celts.
What really happened was that the people who brought Christianity to the Celts, also brought the priests with them.
Imagine a primitive civilization, and the pre-Christianity Celts were uncivilized (and I mean this is the strictest sense of the word, not as an insult). They brought civic organisations with them, priests, civic officials and so on. Contained in these civic arrangements with also 'prizes' i.e. "convert to our religion, adopt it and we will give you a grant of land". How can someone who owns nothing and who is scratching for a living, resist help to become wealthy. These people who insisted that a rich man couldn't 'enter the kingdom of heaven' had wealth that these 'uncivilised' people couldn't begin to imagine and they told their new converts that the old religion and its priests were tools of Satan. This was how the Celtic religion disappeared, not through some epiphany about how great the 'word of God' was.

And then to say something about the conversion of drug addicts, criminals etc. From a psychological point of view, these people can also be 'cured' of their 'wrongdoing' by seeing a shrink. Maybe not all hardened criminals (seriously dangerous people have more than hangups wrong with them and even religion can't cure those), but find what is causing the problem, fix that and the person won't turn to religion.
One problem that I can think of, offhand, is the stigma attached to homosexuality. You often find that a teenager, discovering in his emerging sexuality that he is more attracted to boys than girls, turns to religion and becomes fanatical about his religious conviction because he cannot either be accepted by his family and friends who say that God will cure his 'sinful thoughts'.
That same child, given the opportunity to see their blossoming sexuality, not as sinful, but as just the way they are, will, very often, not turn to religion.
I don't think that finding religion 'changes lives' for the 'better'. I think it merely changes the crutch that the person who finds it uses to get through whatever it is that has caused them to go 'off the rails'.
2/21/2009, 11:57 pm Link to this post Send PM to Morwen Oronor Blog
 
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Re: Diologue with Elim-10 on sin


Elim-10 said:

What you're asking is a huge matter.My words are subject to error.You want me to answer your question in my own words,but I don't have an answer outside of what God's Word says.

Okay, tell me what Genesis says was the reason God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden. If this request seems inane, bear with me for a while, and I'll explain why I asked that question.

Tim
2/22/2009, 1:33 am Link to this post Send Email to Tim Callahan   Send PM to Tim Callahan
 


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